'The Interview': George Saunders Is No Saint (Despite What You May Have Heard)

Key Takeaways

Author George Saunders discusses balancing his public persona of kindness with satirical fiction.
His new novel, 'Vigil,' explores complex themes of determinism, responsibility, and empathy.
Saunders emphasizes literature's role in fostering incremental personal growth and human connection.
A pivotal experience in Singapore reshaped his understanding of capitalism and systemic struggles.
Buddhist meditation helps Saunders manage thoughts, cultivate kindness, and improve self-awareness.
Saunders views salvation as overcoming fundamental delusions about self, permanence, and separateness.

At 67, George Saunders has taught creative writing at Syracuse University since 1996.
His 2021 bestseller, 'A Swim in a Pond in the Rain,' distills his teaching methods.
He runs a popular Substack called 'Story Club' and has a new novel, 'Vigil.'
His public image as a 'guru of goodness' largely stems from a viral 2013 speech on kindness.

Saunders' new novel 'Vigil' raises thematic questions of determinism and responsibility.
He approaches these questions by formulating them rather than offering definitive solutions.
The novel presents opposing viewpoints through characters like KJ Boone, a dying oil tycoon.
Other central figures include the ghost of Jill, an advocate for kindness, and a vengeful 1800s Frenchman.

Saunders initially embraced Ayn Rand's philosophy due to insecurity and a desire to feel 'special' during a challenging academic period.
He read 'Atlas Shrugged' as a young man with a band career plan, finding the novel immersive.
A pivotal moment in Singapore, observing elderly women clearing a construction site by hand, shifted his perspective.
This experience led to a realization about systemic capitalism struggles and a move towards progressive ideas, influenced by childhood Catholicism.

Success has given Saunders a better vantage point to observe capitalism's inherent unfairness.
He notes that capitalism has evolved to be both 'meaner' and 'more beautiful' over time.
Saunders states shareholder value often serves as an excuse to overlook otherwise unacceptable actions.
He highlights a societal comfort with knowing the right thing to do but acting differently, contributing to political discourse.

Saunders distinguishes kindness from niceness, describing kindness as awareness and presence without excessive 'monkey mind.'
He connects his Buddhist practice to kindness and art, noting how self-generated thoughts can dominate consciousness.
He explains that thoughts are not the self, comparing them to 'brain farts' that do not need to be owned.
Meditation allows for observing thoughts without acting on them, offering a moment to choose a different response. Saunders admits to recently slacking on meditation and observing a return of old neuroses.

Saunders reveals a lifelong preoccupation with death, stemming from a childhood memory of his grandparents' breathing.
He describes early, fundamental delusions of self: believing oneself the star of one's own movie, not dying, and being separate from others.
Death, he states, confronts these Darwinian yet ultimately untrue perspectives.
Salvation is defined as stepping out of delusions of permanence, self-importance, and separateness, which removes fear.

Saunders observes a growing trend of avoiding human-to-human interaction, attributing it to corporate influence.
He suggests a subtle societal devaluation of personal contact is at play.
He shared an anecdote about de-escalating a hostile email through a personal response, highlighting the corrosive effect of online impersonality.

Saunders advocates for literature's potential power, particularly in educational settings, to develop critical reading skills.
He believes early exposure to stories from authors like Chekhov is crucial for students' analytical development.
The host suggests fiction's cultural status has declined, becoming an 'artisanal pursuit.'
Saunders agrees but notes he and his students continue to write due to deep engagement and fulfillment, regardless of external validation.

Saunders recalls a 'magical moment' in his 30s, aware of a special writing period despite economic struggles while writing his first collection, 'Civil War Land and Bad Decline.'
He started his writing career later, with his first book published at age 38, leading to a sense of urgency.
He found happiness and purpose even when his prodigy dreams didn't materialize, discovering he was not shallowly ambition-driven.