George Saunders Is No Saint (Despite What You May Have Heard)

Key Takeaways

Author George Saunders' novel 'Vigil' explores determinism, responsibility, and differing perspectives on blame.
Saunders emphasizes the incremental benefits of literature in fostering empathy and shifting consciousness.
The discussion critiques modern capitalism's role in devaluing human connection and promoting hypocrisy.
Saunders clarifies that kindness requires awareness and presence, distinguishing it from mere niceness.
He views death as a reality check that dispels human illusions of permanence and self-importance.

The guest adopted Ayn Rand's philosophy at age 19 due to insecurity during geophysics studies, viewing himself as a 'glowing knight of objectivity'.
Reading 'Atlas Shrugged' sparked his interest in novels and later contributed to a shift away from conservative politics.
A trip to Singapore, witnessing Malaysian women performing manual labor, solidified his realization about systemic issues and human struggles.
The guest found fiction's empathetic, non-judgmental nature analogous to the biblical story of Jesus and the woman at the well.

The guest views modern capitalism as 'gleaming' and integrated into individual psychology through concepts like 'shareholder value'.
He argues this serves as a justification for actions that would otherwise be unacceptable.
Saunders critiques a mental disconnect where individuals acknowledge the right course of action but act contrary to it, linking this to current politics.
The host and guest discuss how convenience or excuses like 'shareholder value' lead people to overlook important principles.

The guest expresses humorous resistance to being labeled a 'secular saint' for kindness after receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award.
His emphasis on kindness originated from arguing that it is difficult and often impossible, contrasting with public perception.
He notes a personal struggle with grumpiness and anxiety, attributing his public image partly to good manners learned in Chicago.
Saunders clarifies that true kindness is distinct from niceness, requiring awareness and presence without 'monkey mind'.

The guest reveals a lifelong obsession with death, stemming from childhood anxieties about his grandparents and mortality.
He views death as the moment fundamental human delusions of permanence, self-importance, and separation are dispelled.
This realization is described not as morbid, but as a 'joyful thing' and a profound reality check.
Saunders defines 'salvation' as any instance of stepping out of these core delusions, often observed in individuals nearing death.

A concern is raised about the accelerated reduction of human-to-human activity, driven by corporate interests.
The guest views this trend as subtly devaluing direct contact and being widely accepted by society.
He recounts an anecdote where a negative online interaction de-escalated into a brief human connection upon personal engagement.
Saunders identifies the devaluing of human-to-human contact as a central theme of his life, emphasizing its fundamental importance.

The guest questions the premise that literature makes people 'better,' suggesting it temporarily expands and makes individuals more generous.
He agrees that art should answer to nobody but notes fiction's cultural importance has declined since the 1990s, becoming an 'artisanal pursuit'.
Saunders proposes that teaching literature, such as Chekhov stories, to younger students can be powerful, helping them unpack texts and gain confidence in their perceptions.
He observes students engage in writing because it 'lights them up', regardless of its broader cultural role.

The host references Saunders' 1995 author's note from 'Civil Warland and Bad Decline,' detailing a financially challenging but magically significant period.
Saunders recently reflected on his younger, ambitious, and naive self while visiting his alma mater, the School of Mines in Colorado.
Having published his first book at age 38, he now, at nearly 70, feels a sense of urgency to produce quality work in the time remaining.
The guest's new novel, 'Vigil,' is set for release on January 27th.