Best Of: Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones

Key Takeaways

Zadie Smith emphasizes her identity as a radical humanist and existentialist, rejecting singular labels.
The conversation explores the tension between complex individual identities and pressure for solidified political stances.
Smith critiques digital technology as a behavior modification system, impacting self-perception and attention.
The discussion highlights the existential nature of loneliness, particularly in aging, and the search for genuine connection.
Smith's novel, "The Fraud," uses historical cases to examine populism and perceptions of justice.

Zadie Smith identifies as a radical humanist, socialist, and existentialist, focusing on individual existence in societal contexts.
The host and Smith discussed the tension between internal conflict and external pressure to conform to political identities.
Smith's 2018 essay collection, 'Feel Free,' examined the shift from amorphous selves to rigid political identities during the 2016 election cycle.

Zadie Smith's novel, "The Fraud," is based on the Tichbourne case, a 19th-century example of left-wing populism.
The case involved Arthur Orton allegedly impersonating Roger Tichbourne, supported by Roger's mother and a former family servant.
Smith draws parallels between the Tichbourne case and the O.J. Simpson trial, noting both revealed larger truths about systemic injustice despite factual complexities.
For supporters like Sarah Ainsworth, the Tichbourne claim was an emotional appeal against a court system perceived as biased toward the upper classes.
Smith discussed how "dry, inconvenient facts" can be overshadowed by an "ocean of feeling," a concept resonating with the host regarding populist movements.

The host noted that identity-based political conflicts, often termed "wokeness," saw significant momentum between 2015 and 2021 before a recent decline.
Zadie Smith discussed her approach to teaching literature, focusing on truth and understanding rather than engaging in ideological "bait" or "football game of ideas."
The conversation addressed evolving youth ideologies and the essential increased visibility of African diasporic thought in historical analysis.

Zadie Smith rejects being defined by a singular identity, stressing the need for continuous personal evolution and thought.
She argues that while identity groups are crucial for civil rights, being "existentially all the way down" defined by one identity can be revolting for human beings.
Smith contends that external oppression, such as poverty, causes a more significant "denuding of the self" than internal identity conflicts, narrowing one's practical ability to act and think.
The conversation touched on the complexities of terms like "Zionism" and the "painful gap" between amorphous personal identity and the strictures of language.

Zadie Smith argues that smartphones and social media are designed as "behavior modification systems" that dictate what users should think about and how.
She contrasts this with her earlier, more optimistic view of the internet as a peer-to-peer communication tool.
Smith references Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves to Death," noting its prophetic accuracy regarding media's "total capture" of individuals and its impact on attention spans.

Zadie Smith chooses not to own a smartphone, citing concerns about the "total capture" of consciousness by constant connectivity and the pressure to present a curated life online.
She notes that social media fosters a divergence between curated online personas and real-life experiences, leading to a sad disconnect.
Smith believes platforms can expose negative aspects of people, yet emphasizes the need for forgiveness as these platforms are "behavior modification systems."

Zadie Smith observes that while music thrives online due to algorithms, reading suffers, and desires a more private web.
She values deep connections with a few people over broad social interaction, emphasizing the rarity and value of true friendship.
Smith noted an increased awareness of the difficulty in forming genuine human connections, highlighting that such relationships demand time.

The host and Zadie Smith discussed aging and its connection to loneliness, a theme explored in her book, with Smith expressing fears about this association.
Smith stated that life stages can be existentially isolating, and people often use phones or books to avoid confronting this loneliness.
The conversation highlighted "monumental" differences in aging experiences for men versus women, with men potentially facing anxieties traditionally associated with women.
Smith expressed acceptance of aging, noting she would not choose to be 27 again, and reflected on the personal challenge of dealing with the loss of physical capacity and beauty.

The conversation explored the arbitrary nature of intergenerational conflict, highlighting how each generation believes it has solved societal issues.
The host observed a recurring theme of millennials seeking acceptance from younger generations, mirroring historical patterns of intergenerational dynamics.
Zadie Smith connects a character's feeling of exclusion and disorientation due to aging in "The Fraud" to the broader lack of language to discuss the psychic experience of aging, which is feared by younger generations.